So, I’ve been thinking about 4e so far, and how to push it into a different style of game. More review is forthcoming, by the way — PHB Part II should be up sometime this weekend, depending on my free time.
But in the meantime, below the cut you’ll find a few of my thoughts on how to tweak 4e around to turn those expensive high-production-value hardcovers into a game you won’t feel dirty about enjoying.
Magic Items, Equipment and Challenge Assumptions
Problems:
- The treasure system is stupid beyond reckoning. The magic item crafting system is just as bad.
- You can still buy awesome with gold, and the magic item pricing appears to scale in really strange ways. Also, the magic item economy is pants-on-head retarded.
- You can’t run a S&S-esque game with limited magic items because it jacks up the ability assumptions.
I’d take the same approach to this I’m using in Adventures in Playtesting: magic items don’t have a bonus rating, they’re just magical, and apply a bonus to the appropriate rolls that scales automatically with the character’s level. So if a fighter finds a magic sword, instead of a Magic Sword +1/+3/+5/+whatever, he finds a Magic Sword that gives a bonus to sword attacks of +1/three levels.
If you want to go the S&S route, just make those bonuses intrinsic to the character instead of item-derived. Let people change them up after extended rests. A mighty-thewed barbarian might apply his “magic item equivalent” bonus to Strength-based attacks, while a nimble street rat could apply it to all attacks using daggers. Or something.
Abilities other than flat bonuses are a little harder, but those have been drastically scaled back in 4e anyway, so I’m less concerned about them.
Impacts:
- Since characters can’t buy items more powerful than they should normally have at all, there’s no incentive for them to destroy awesome setting elements just to sell the shinies. Because every GM should be able to have castles of gold and onyx without the players stripping off the walls and using them to buy Pants of Swank +2.
- On the other side, GMs can now go back to having dragons sleep on huge piles of coins and gems, the way god intended, without hosing his ability to challenge the players appropriately.
- You also get to kill the whole “treasure packets” idea, and merchants no longer have to be plot devices of arbitrary power that will take your crappy magic items, sell you awesome magic items, and yet never get robbed or set on fire.
- Players won’t be replacing magic items every four levels, so you can put some real personality into items. “Well, got a +2, time to sell the +1″ is just kind of dull.
Revenge of Save-or-Fucked
Problems:
- HP damage is boring.
- High level effects are the same as low-level effects, but shinier.
- Lack of alternative victory conditions.
Not everyone misses SoF effects as much as I do, but 4e characters are woefully under-equipped to do anything to opponents other than plink away at their hit points.
Really, there are two possible routes to go with this: Old-school “retro stupid” grognardry, or trying to adapt 3e status conditions to 4e’s engine.
If you want to emulate pre-4e hose-job spells like like color spray, wrack, mind jar, or wail of the banshee, here’s what you do: pick about 1/4th of the encounter abilities and 1/3 of the daily abilities of each class (go with the ones named after effects that used to be SoF; when you run out, pick the ones with badass names) and replace whatever damage they do with “fucks you up proper”. Be liberal with stunning, dominating, and paralyzing, and trickle the instant death in at levels 10+. Instantly, you’ve got effects of 2e or 3e wizard potential ready to go. If you want to push it back a little, imitate the action of 4e Sleep (Wiz/D/1) and have it daze, stun, or weaken first round, and if they fail their save next round, they explode. They’re still going to be less powerful than 3e, because it’s a lot harder to totally pimp out your attack rolls and it’s downright impossible to affect their saving throws. This may be good for you, or not.
Impacts:
- Fights will be much, much shorter, and initiative will become all-important.
- Specialists and optimizers will be much more heavily rewarded.
- In general, you’ll need more monsters to challenge the party, because some of them will go down like chumps.
If you want to transfer that kind of thing over to 4e’s assumptions, you’re going to need to get into condition tracks. In a way, 4e has already paved this road with its disease rules, so we’re just going to extend those. Consider the following four tracks:
- Movement: Effects that assail the Movement track are those that limit mobility, either through physical confinement or mental inhibition.
- Impeded: Movement -2, cannot shift.
- Slow: Half movement, cannot shift or charge, can only take two actions of standard/move/minor instead of all three.
- Immobilized: Cannot move at all, can only take two actions of standard/move/minor instead of all three.
- Held: Paralyzed, helpless (vulnerable to coup de grace), can take no actions.
- Focus: Attacks on the Focus track take the form of distractions or interruptions in the opponent’s ability to react.
- Dazzled: Cannot take opportunity attacks or use reaction abilities.
- Dazed: May take only one of standard/move/minor action each turn instead of all three, cannot take opportunity attacks or use reaction abilities.
- Stunned: Can take no actions.
- Unconscious: Can take no actions, helpless
- Enchantment: Attacks on the Enchantment track confuse an enemy about who his allies are.
- Fascinated: Will not attack the caster until the caster next attacks him.
- Charmed: Will not attack the caster or his allies until one of them next attack him.
- Enthralled: Will attack only the caster’s enemies, using only at-will powers, to the best of his ability.
- Dominated: Obeys the commands of the caster to the best of his ability.
- Death: Attacks on the death track directly assail the target’s soul
- Weakened: Attacks do half damage.
- Enfeebled: Attacks do maximum of 1 damage, -2 to Fortitude and Will defenses.
- Enervated: Attacks do maximum of 1 damage, enemy attacks automatically hit.
- Dead: Dead.
It’s not hard to figure out which attacks should have which conditions attached to them. Conditions aren’t cumulative up the track – you only get the penalties you’re on. Anytime someone smacks you with a power of the appropriate type, you move down the track. Any time you spend a healing surge (or regain hit points as though you had spent one), you move up on all tracks. At the end of each turn, roll a saving throw for each track you have an effect on: 1-9, you slide down the track; 10-19, you slide up; 20, you throw it off entirely and move all the way up the track. As long as you’re not on the last condition, you heal all tracks after a short break — if you are, what happens is up to the GM. Minions don’t get a full track – as with damage, if you smack them with a condition, they’re out.
Impacts:
- Obviously, this is a lot more bookkeeping for the GM.
- Fights will tend to be shorter, especially against enemies with limited access to healing surges.
- Expect players to specialize the entire party around a single track so they can pull Disgaea-style four player combos and blow an enemy straight through to Fucked in one round.
- Optimizing is rewarded more than it is now, but not as much as in 3e.
Ritual Sacrifice
Problem:
- Rituals are stupid. Setting money on fire for a magical effect is a terrible idea: it’s another part of the money->superpowers link that results in the Greyhawking of perfectly innocent terrain features, and it permanently jacks up level-appropriate-wealth train.
Just get rid of the reagent costs for rituals. Seriously, just ignore them. The only resource that actually matters is time anyway.
Impacts:
- Players will actually take and use rituals.
- Crafting magic items becomes more attractive — it is recommended you use this in conjunction with the magic item fix above to keep things from getting a little nuts.
- Players will be less worried about death because it won’t cost them actual money to come back. How to handle this is a game-by-game decision, but let’s be honest: either the player wants to replace the character anyway, so who cares, or they don’t, so they’ll find a way to pay the cost and you’ll just have to hand out more gold to get them back on the wealth-by-level train anyway. So it doesn’t even matter.
When You Wish Upon a Star
Problem:
- I miss wish.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think around level 20+ (which appears to be roughly equivalent to 3e’s level 15+), characters should be able to do stuff more interesting than “re-use the last encounter power you used if you’re out of encounter powers”, which is seriously a power that fucking Demigods get and that’s weak whiskey distilled from the finest of weakgrains and weak sauce.
I’m just not sure what to do about it.
My thought is a series of rituals from levels 18-30 that have wish-like powers and other sorts of utility effects currently missing from 4e. Off the top of my head, how about:
Prescient Edge (Level 18 Ritual)
20 minutes, Arcana (no check)
You gain an additional use of one of your daily powers. You may use this power as a free action, but you must expend a healing surge when you use it. If you do not use it by your next extended rest, it fades.
True Creation (Level 21 Ritual)
1 hour, Arcana or Nature (no check)
You create up to ten times your level in pounds of a single, unworked, homogeneous mundane material.
Song of Forging (Level 23 Ritual)
1 hour, Nature (no check)
You shape raw materials into a finished form of your choosing. The resulting creation is mundane, so it must be physically possible. You can affect any unworked, unliving raw material within the range of your voice.Anima Transformation (Level 25 Ritual)
20 minutes, Arcana
For 24 hours or until your next extended rest, you replace one of your daily powers with a daily or encounter power of another class. This power can be of a level no greater than the lower of your level or the result of your Arcana check.
Shape Reality (Level 27 Ritual)
24 hours, Arcana (special)
You wield tremendous influence over a region with a radius of one-half your level in miles. While you continue the ritual, you are aware of the terrain and weather of the region, and may alter it slowly. As a general rule, it takes one hour to effect a moderate change, such as stirring up a thunderstorm or opening a mountain pass.
All creatures of your level or higher who have mastered this Ritual or succeed on an Insight check with DC equal to your level are aware as soon as this ritual begins, and may enact it themselves to counteract your alterations. Conflicting alterations are resolved with a contested Arcana check for each change.
Planeshift (Level 30 Ritual)
1 round, Arcana (no check)
This ritual contains the Words of Binding and Unbinding, which control the walls between planes. If you speak the Word of Unbinding, you shatter these walls. A region extending 1 mile from you is shifted abruptly into another plane of your choosing, leaving only a great crater behind. You may travel to a specific planar destination you have visited before, or you may let fate choose. A creature that has mastered this Ritual can speak the Word of Binding as an immediate reaction to counter you.
Alternately, you may speak the Word of Binding, which prevents all teleportation and interplanar travel effects from working within a radius of a mile. Only speaking the Word of Unbinding as an immediate reaction can prevent this effect. The Words can only be spoken by living creatures. Using this ritual more than once between extended rests is immediately fatal (as though a third save against Dying had failed), though the second invocation still takes effect.
Are those balanced? Probably not (though remember, I’m assuming you’re using revised magic item rules so they’re not creating big stacks of gold then buying free passes to Awesometown), and this is just off the top of my head, no real refinements. But at least they’re interesting.


Ignoring for a moment the inherent fun of ruleset hacking, it seems like a lot of work compared to the ‘just play 1st/2nd/3rd edition’ solution, which has the added a benefit of a market suddenly flooded with cheap rulebooks. Or are there enough positives in the mechanics to justify the effort of banging it into something satisfying?
I just can’t get over the deep philosophical differences. It’s now explicitly a dungeon-by-numbers grind, protected from bad DMs by the removal of anything that requires a judgement call or creative balancing. The very things that made the game fun when you had a good DM.
In almost 20 years of playing, I can’t remember a single significant battle that was the result of grinding down hit points. I remember the players being surrounded by kobolds in Dragon Mountain and their brilliant plan to ignite the sea of oil around them with a wand of wonder and then jump into a portable hole and wait out the inferno. I remember them debating the wording of a wish for half an hour in order to make sure there weren’t any loopholes that would let half of Tartarus rip them to shreds. I remember a vorpal attack on a 50 foot tall giant that was. . difficult. . to narrate.
That whole genre of experience just got colonized by the WoW grind. If I hear another WotC designer use the term ‘tank’ or ‘dps’ I’m going to throw up.
Hi!
My problem with 4e is that it seems to me very boring. The characters are almost the same (use a bow=use a magic missle), even the powers they get are (in terms of style) the same. I have to wait to actually play it, but right now I get the impression, that playing a fighter or a thief will feel almost the same way…The idea of the powers (fee/encouter/daily) + rituals is great (in genereal), but executed poorly. Someone will have to write new powers to more spereate the classes, allow more freedom in the use of powers (in the sense of spells as in 3e), and put in more options (as you wrote with save or die or wish spell)(options in the sense of freedom and not in build/minmax options). The same goes for the skill system (boring as hell), and maybe expand the multiclass rules. So I think that 4e has nice ideas and that it can be really fun to play, it requires a lot of work.
By the way, for me this is not D&D (different world and style of play they try to recreate). Nevertheless, it could be fun.
There’s a highly salvageable game in there. I already think it’s good fun for one-offs. The problem for me is in the advancement — 4e characters don’t have much beyond a treadmill of bigger numbers, making them all play like the 3e Fighter, gods help them.
I’m still pondering ways to break up the classes a little more. Just writing another dozen powers each doesn’t seem like the right approach. For one thing, it’s a lot of work. I’m thinking of doing something with at-wills and class features. But it’s a tricky puzzle, because there are a lot of embedded design principles that are supposed to keep the classes from being too divergent.
I may have a preliminary fix next week. I need to play with the rules some more, particularly the multiclassing system, and experiment with porting over some of my 3e fixes.
Good work in trying to fix 4e, but it’s a mess… I am split right now between whether 4e with the crap houseruled out of it is worth it, or just sticking with earlier version or other games is the way to go.
I also think that it will require much work to get it right…
Well, it’s pretty impossible to get 4e to play like 3e. That’s not even a question. I just think there’s a distinct and interesting feel that 4e has that I want to play, but there are some substantial flavor and rules changes that need to be made before it can hold my attention for more than a Friday night’s beer game.
< pedant >
You keep talking about Mind Jar. Do you mean Magic Jar?
Yes. That is what I mean.
Great points raised and good on you for trying to already house rule the hell out of this thing while the ink is still drying.
Also thanks for the LOLS. “which is seriously a power that fucking Demigods get and that’s weak whiskey distilled from the finest of weakgrains and weak sauce.” was an esp. awesome one.
What a great read! I had many of the same thoughts when I demoed 4E this weekend. It’s got all the trappings of a very generic game. Sometimes that’s just what you need – for example, I’d enjoy playing Midnight with 4E, or Eberron. I’m less inclined to play the out-of-the-box D&D 4E modules, as I’m fairly certain they’re going to be balanced to the point of boredom.
Probably the direction I’d go for fixing combat is the variant rules in the SRD.
1) Divide damage by 5, round up.
2) Add this to DC 15 for a Fortitude Check.
A) Success = no ill effect
B) Fail by 9 or less = suffer a hit, -1 cumulative to avoid injury
C) Fail by 10 or more = Disabled/Staggered.
Disabled = move at 1/2 speed. Take only a single move/standard action. Performing standard actions could move you to Dying.
Healing surges won’t remove disabled, only rest and/or magical healing can. Staggered is nonlethal damage (from punches). Staggered has similar effects, but only moves you to Unconscious.
Dying = Unconscious and near death. Make a Fortitude save, DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable each turn. Penalties suffered from hits apply to this saving throw.
Failure = he dies.
Success by less than 5 = still dying, must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.
Success by 5 or more = conscious and disabled.
Unconscious = you fall to the floor, helpless and incapable of action. Additional nonlethal hits have no effect. When he recovers one nonlethal hit, he becomes conscious.
With a full night’s rest, a character heals 1 hit per 2 character levels (minimum 1 hit per night). If he undergoes complete bed rest for 24 hours, he heals a number of hits equal to his character level. For nonlethal damage, this is changed to 1 hit per 2 character levels per hour.
Another VERY simple fix you could use is to simply add the character’s level to the hit point damage they do. At 1st level, you’d add 1 pt. At 5th, 5 points, at 20th, 20 pts.
Makes it very nasty at higher levels.
And you could further restrict it by saying it only applies to powers.
Although, why WotC couldn’t have gone this route is beyond me:
HEROISM
As you advance in level, you gain a number of benefits that improve your capabilities. These benefits are collectively called Heroism. Typically, Heroism doesn’t give you a new ability, but instead improves something you’re already able to do.
Heroism may be applied once per day (or per encounter, or at will to suit) to up to three of the following:
1. Level added to Attack Bonus
2. Level added to Damage
3. Level added to Saving Throw roll
4. Level added to a Skill
5. Level added to Spell DC roll (spells are more difficult to cast in my campaign, and they don’t vanish from memory)
6. Ignore a particular restriction or penalty in certain situations
7. Use a skill in a different way
8. Alter the effects of your powers
9. Gain a capability from another class
In order to use Heroism, you have to justify it in terms of your character. A Templar might use Holy Might to increase their Damage with Heroism. A Fighter might use Strike Mighty Blow to achieve the same thing. A seafaring race might have a bonus to Swim. A more magically-attuned race might have a bonus to Arcana.
The big advantage over Feats is they level with you. Want the Improved Smackdown Feat? Gain a level! You don’t have to write Multi-tiered powers for every level, either. Level 2 powers? No problem! Just get to level 2, your Powers rise in level!
Of course, with all this free will, it would make for a smaller rulebook, and less money for Hasbro, I guess. This was just my reaction to 3.0 and 3.5, really. More bang for your buck by using *gasp!* imagination, instead of 500 splatbooks and more rules than you could possibly remember.
I like your idea about scaling magic item bonuses.
And this…
“If you want to go the S&S route, just make those bonuses intrinsic to the character instead of item-derived.”
…got me thinking. Why not allow characters to “buy” abilities equivalent to magic items for the same amount as the items would cost. That way you also get the standard S&S trope of a hero landing a horde of loot, then blowing it all on ale and whores. Of course, what he’s really doing is buying up his sword attack to the equivalent of a +2 sword.
Not that it matters but on a tachnical note.. you aren’t a demigod when you get the power to regain a daily power, you’re on your way to being one. The epic tr is about becoming achracter that would no longer follow the rules of reality, and then putting that character on a shelf to make cameos in later campaigns. Which I’ll admit kinda sucks, I want to play my character when it hits that point and beyond myself. I suppose they’ll probably come out with a kind of “uber” epic level hand book, since the epic tier is epic… for a mortal. Maybe it’ll be “a guide to demigods as races” who the hell knows.. anyways, that’s my two sense. Not saying I like all of 4th ed.. but.. there’s alot to be loved if you just give it a little chance.
On another not.. sorry I didn’t use spell check or reread anything there.. I’m still waking up so I look like a typing retard, humble apologies.
Re: Heroism, I’ve gotten very leery of adjusting the base numeric progression of things. One thing that 4e is pretty good about is keeping characters within the same random number generator, a goal that I consider both Worthy and Useful. I’d rather hand out things like re-rolls, new uses for abilities, or other non-additive abilities whenever possible.
Now, just straight-up adding numbers to damage starts to look really attractive when you look at the HP totals for monsters above level 10, but I think that’s more a problem with the monster HP scaling.
Re: Post-epic play. I doubt it will happen. 3e’s Epic Level Handbook, aka The D&D Joke Book, was awful, and there’s no reason to expect that expanding the level range is something that’s on the table for 4e. My inclination would be just to find ways to bump up the number of interesting things you can do at those levels, and if GMs want it to last longer, they can just give out less XP or otherwise slow advancement.
I really do think there needs to be at least more options in the epic play, it’s very limited compared to the rest of the options in the other tiers and: The goals are rather type specific. I didn’t much like the actual epic level handbook either, it made no sense, but with all the changes who knows what it would look like here. But I concede to the points you’ve made.
That being said, I still don’t like shelfing a character that I like just because it’s played through. All that invested time and my intense doodling go down the tubes, but it’s inevitable.
So there. See? I’m reasonable.. XD
first off when is the first core set ever at its final potential. never. theres going to be more, trust me. and there may be some bugs to work out but they will be. the best thing 4th does is handicap all of the munchkining, powergaming folks out there who couldnt roleplay to save their mother from a pack of kobolds. i see it edition after edition, everyone whines and gripes about the new edition and firmly resolves to change it (and consequently break it) or not play it. for those who must change it, i say that minor modification for roleplaying application is perfect but completely changing/ adding all kinds of new rules boggs the system and breaks its function. thats why the companies spend valuble time and money playtesting settings and rules… to fix them. they cant get everything in the first go but give it time young ones, the changes you seek will come. for those who decide not to play i can only say one thing… oh, you will play. you will play
Shape Reality sounds very Borgstromesque.
Also, @ JR: You really seem to be mistaken on a number of fronts. First off, all of the better roleplayer’s I’ve known have also been the people who were good at character optomization. I don’t know what way the causal relationship (if any) went, but “munchkining” and character and story focus seem to go hand in hand.
Further, players who are comfortable with crunchy rules systems were also comfortable with extensive house rules; a thing I belive has made at least two games I’ve been in more fun on several levels. Basically, the important thing was to have the players believe the GM is acting in good faith, but without that games suck anyway.
If you’re trying to make 4e more like 3.5, just play 3.5. If you want to improve 3.5, improve 3.5. Duh.