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	<title>Comments on: 4e by the Numbers: Part II</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.diepointyhat.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=168" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168</link>
	<description>Doesn&#039;t matter what system or setting: the dude in the pointy hat is going down.</description>
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		<title>By: MdM</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-25042</link>
		<dc:creator>MdM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-25042</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen some people building up encyclopedic rule systems around Intimidate, trying to balance it. I hate that.

I would use the following:

- Bloodied is not a condition status for being intimidated;
- Bonuses against fear applies;
- An intimidated subject becomes Weakened (save ends);
.
All the rest remaining the same.

This turns the skill check still useful, and eliminates the save or die problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen some people building up encyclopedic rule systems around Intimidate, trying to balance it. I hate that.</p>
<p>I would use the following:</p>
<p>- Bloodied is not a condition status for being intimidated;<br />
- Bonuses against fear applies;<br />
- An intimidated subject becomes Weakened (save ends);<br />
.<br />
All the rest remaining the same.</p>
<p>This turns the skill check still useful, and eliminates the save or die problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Inferiae</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-23282</link>
		<dc:creator>Inferiae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 03:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-23282</guid>
		<description>I agree with your points here, overall.  While I feel the concept of breaking magic items down into residuum is awesome, the implementation of it leaves me cold.  It is basically a built in way for players to convert items they find into one they want to find, at a steep cost.  
The skills are an excellent upgrade to 3.x.  I really do wish that they had better systems for both Diplomacy and Intimidate, however.  There are builds on the Char-Op boards of WotC&#039;s forums focused exclusively on using Intimidate as a save or die effect.  There is a magic item type called &#039;flensing&#039;, which lets you treat an opponent as if it were bloodied, and they get that and every bonus to Intimidate they can find, play Dragonborn, etc.  They usually have a 70% chance to cause a foe to surrender each and every turn they take.  They only get one attempt on any one foe, but still...  It&#039;s potentially game-breaking, considering how strictly and ruthlessly balanced everything else is...

If / when I run a 4th ed game, I&#039;ll be houseruling Intimidate to make it useful, but not overpowered. Also, adding more Feats.  The list I saw available made me a little disappointed in the lack of options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your points here, overall.  While I feel the concept of breaking magic items down into residuum is awesome, the implementation of it leaves me cold.  It is basically a built in way for players to convert items they find into one they want to find, at a steep cost.<br />
The skills are an excellent upgrade to 3.x.  I really do wish that they had better systems for both Diplomacy and Intimidate, however.  There are builds on the Char-Op boards of WotC&#8217;s forums focused exclusively on using Intimidate as a save or die effect.  There is a magic item type called &#8216;flensing&#8217;, which lets you treat an opponent as if it were bloodied, and they get that and every bonus to Intimidate they can find, play Dragonborn, etc.  They usually have a 70% chance to cause a foe to surrender each and every turn they take.  They only get one attempt on any one foe, but still&#8230;  It&#8217;s potentially game-breaking, considering how strictly and ruthlessly balanced everything else is&#8230;</p>
<p>If / when I run a 4th ed game, I&#8217;ll be houseruling Intimidate to make it useful, but not overpowered. Also, adding more Feats.  The list I saw available made me a little disappointed in the lack of options.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-23108</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-23108</guid>
		<description>Agreed, the cap can be made to make sense and is necessary to avoid the &quot;15-minute adventuring day&quot; issue that cropped up in 3e. It&#039;s not the most elegant solution, but it&#039;s functional.

In my experience, power optimization and role-playing are orthogonal. The one doesn&#039;t have much impact on the other, certainly less that the drift the GM brings to the game. If the GM is running the game in a very fiddly, technical way, the optimization elements will be in the foreground; if he&#039;s not, they don&#039;t, but they can still be there.

Amber... is a thing. I&#039;m very hesitant to draw conclusions or project trends based on Amber. It&#039;s a weird duck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, the cap can be made to make sense and is necessary to avoid the &#8220;15-minute adventuring day&#8221; issue that cropped up in 3e. It&#8217;s not the most elegant solution, but it&#8217;s functional.</p>
<p>In my experience, power optimization and role-playing are orthogonal. The one doesn&#8217;t have much impact on the other, certainly less that the drift the GM brings to the game. If the GM is running the game in a very fiddly, technical way, the optimization elements will be in the foreground; if he&#8217;s not, they don&#8217;t, but they can still be there.</p>
<p>Amber&#8230; is a thing. I&#8217;m very hesitant to draw conclusions or project trends based on Amber. It&#8217;s a weird duck.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Ellsworth</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-23073</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Ellsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-23073</guid>
		<description>Got to disagree on the &#039;extended rest&#039; complaint.

You can flop on your rear as often as you like.  You can only get your powers recharged &#039;every now and then&#039;, which is just as much a hack as the &#039;wizards get their spells back every night&#039; rule.

Since characters live in a self consistent world, you do need some flavor text, and to accept up front that hit points, integral stats, action points, initiative dice, encounter powers, and so on, are all things that need a flavor text wrapper.  Create those, and the rest is just how you track the die rolls.

On another note, power optimization does not seem positively correlated with role playing in any of the groups I have sat in on or run.  Of course, our group has found Amber diceless to work out well.  Part of the flow of that game is explicit buy-in on balance, and a requirement that players create flavor text themselves.

Scott</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got to disagree on the &#8216;extended rest&#8217; complaint.</p>
<p>You can flop on your rear as often as you like.  You can only get your powers recharged &#8216;every now and then&#8217;, which is just as much a hack as the &#8216;wizards get their spells back every night&#8217; rule.</p>
<p>Since characters live in a self consistent world, you do need some flavor text, and to accept up front that hit points, integral stats, action points, initiative dice, encounter powers, and so on, are all things that need a flavor text wrapper.  Create those, and the rest is just how you track the die rolls.</p>
<p>On another note, power optimization does not seem positively correlated with role playing in any of the groups I have sat in on or run.  Of course, our group has found Amber diceless to work out well.  Part of the flow of that game is explicit buy-in on balance, and a requirement that players create flavor text themselves.</p>
<p>Scott</p>
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		<title>By: Doc Ryder</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12884</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc Ryder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12884</guid>
		<description>In support of the &quot; explicit cap on how often you can take an extended rest&quot; idea, I know I have one hell of a time getting to sleep most Sunday nights, because I was out late gaming Saturday night, and got up very late Sunday morning (or is that afternoon). I have no problem with the cap.

I&#039;m onboard with a number of your other comments, especially the flight issue. They state this stuff about how the various tiers of play should feel, keep to those ideas with the powers, then violate them with the equipment (in this case, the hippogriff). Seems kinda dumb to me.

Yeah, I expect to have a notebook full of house rules if I run this one. Then again, I usually do, no matter what game I play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In support of the &#8221; explicit cap on how often you can take an extended rest&#8221; idea, I know I have one hell of a time getting to sleep most Sunday nights, because I was out late gaming Saturday night, and got up very late Sunday morning (or is that afternoon). I have no problem with the cap.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m onboard with a number of your other comments, especially the flight issue. They state this stuff about how the various tiers of play should feel, keep to those ideas with the powers, then violate them with the equipment (in this case, the hippogriff). Seems kinda dumb to me.</p>
<p>Yeah, I expect to have a notebook full of house rules if I run this one. Then again, I usually do, no matter what game I play.</p>
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		<title>By: Mea</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12705</link>
		<dc:creator>Mea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 19:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12705</guid>
		<description>So anyhow yeah, most of the problems you&#039;ve listed are indeed problems, and also easily solved by house ruled or changing your setting to have a different economy.

About the suspension of disbelief thing, in a later comment I think you have it right when you said &quot;this is D&amp;D&quot;. Whatever crazy thing you want to throw in you damn well should be able to, and with all the easy acceptance and enthusiasm as an obsessive &quot;Buffy&quot; fan when the show was fresh. Suspend disbelief. Do it now. Do it with mind boggling idiocity. Do it like you&#039;ve just spent $40 a book to be able to play a game about being a hero in a supernatural world. Otherwise, maybe you should just start reading biographies.

In short, my disbelief only applies to the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So anyhow yeah, most of the problems you&#8217;ve listed are indeed problems, and also easily solved by house ruled or changing your setting to have a different economy.</p>
<p>About the suspension of disbelief thing, in a later comment I think you have it right when you said &#8220;this is D&amp;D&#8221;. Whatever crazy thing you want to throw in you damn well should be able to, and with all the easy acceptance and enthusiasm as an obsessive &#8220;Buffy&#8221; fan when the show was fresh. Suspend disbelief. Do it now. Do it with mind boggling idiocity. Do it like you&#8217;ve just spent $40 a book to be able to play a game about being a hero in a supernatural world. Otherwise, maybe you should just start reading biographies.</p>
<p>In short, my disbelief only applies to the real world.</p>
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		<title>By: Artillery MKV</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12613</link>
		<dc:creator>Artillery MKV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12613</guid>
		<description>Winterborne has a use . . .consider the Dragonborn Wizard who takes Cold as their breath weapon and uses a lot of Cold spells . .. may well be worth the Feat.

It&#039;s also fairly easy to get a Cold Descriptor weapon, and this feat would apply to those attacks as well.

However the real win here is going to be attacks with the Radiant descriptor for Paladins.   Big, big damage and a lot of late game foes with vulnerabilities.

I think the real issue with the system is that it is now almost impossible to consider a character in a vacuum.  My Dragonborn Warlord went Tactical because our party has no Defenders, so I need to be able to get the Strikers in and out of melee quickly, and control where the enemy is.  On paper the Inspiring Warlord looks more attractive, but without a Fighter or Paladin and the party has another Leader (cleric) to add more healing, so it&#039;s a matter of overlapping and stacking abilities and boni.

Anything I can do to grant the Rogue Combat Advantage means that much more damage in a round.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Winterborne has a use . . .consider the Dragonborn Wizard who takes Cold as their breath weapon and uses a lot of Cold spells . .. may well be worth the Feat.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also fairly easy to get a Cold Descriptor weapon, and this feat would apply to those attacks as well.</p>
<p>However the real win here is going to be attacks with the Radiant descriptor for Paladins.   Big, big damage and a lot of late game foes with vulnerabilities.</p>
<p>I think the real issue with the system is that it is now almost impossible to consider a character in a vacuum.  My Dragonborn Warlord went Tactical because our party has no Defenders, so I need to be able to get the Strikers in and out of melee quickly, and control where the enemy is.  On paper the Inspiring Warlord looks more attractive, but without a Fighter or Paladin and the party has another Leader (cleric) to add more healing, so it&#8217;s a matter of overlapping and stacking abilities and boni.</p>
<p>Anything I can do to grant the Rogue Combat Advantage means that much more damage in a round.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12548</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12548</guid>
		<description>You can get better than that by stacking bonuses. I managed to get to a +21 modifier at level 10, which is 50/50 at that level, and the margin improves. Though, granted, only by a little over time; it&#039;s pretty hard to get the kind of skill modifiers you could land in 3e.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can get better than that by stacking bonuses. I managed to get to a +21 modifier at level 10, which is 50/50 at that level, and the margin improves. Though, granted, only by a little over time; it&#8217;s pretty hard to get the kind of skill modifiers you could land in 3e.</p>
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		<title>By: Wyvern</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12545</link>
		<dc:creator>Wyvern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 05:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12545</guid>
		<description>How is rolling a 15+ on a d20 a &quot;50/50 shot&quot;?  Unless I&#039;m misreading Bartoneus&#039; post, it sounds like a 1 in 4 chance to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is rolling a 15+ on a d20 a &#8220;50/50 shot&#8221;?  Unless I&#8217;m misreading Bartoneus&#8217; post, it sounds like a 1 in 4 chance to me.</p>
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		<title>By: mxyzplk</title>
		<link>http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168&#038;cpage=1#comment-12539</link>
		<dc:creator>mxyzplk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 01:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.diepointyhat.com/?p=168#comment-12539</guid>
		<description>Fun writeup!  I like the &quot;pro tips.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fun writeup!  I like the &#8220;pro tips.&#8221;</p>
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